depression comix #387
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387 | depression comix
comics and illustrations by clay jonathan
comics and illustrations by clay jonathan
Loving others makes you love yourself. The reason, by expressing love you are loving yourself.
not always
well if the love you give others is a reflection of your own self love and worthy of love feeling
then it can work the toher way around
the love of others can help you to strength your own self love
but some people that are unable of this end becoming toxic partners
I appreciate your repeatedly making this point over the years. The philosophy of “you must first learn to love yourself”, the way culture interprets it at least, is BS and seems to serve only as a deterrent for those who hate themselves to reach out at all.
Thank you, Clay. You do wonderful, important, necessary work for all of us who suffer from the symptoms and stigma of depression and related disorders.
Thank you for your kind words. On the flip side loving yourself doesn’t mean that your love is automatically healthy and valuable. Narcissism doesn’t make for a great relationship. It’s a stupid philosophy and it makes people who suffer from illnesses like depression become more isolated and feel more worthless.
i gotta think diferent
love yourself is pretty clear
sometimes to be a good partner you gotta fix your life,otherwise you can drag your partner in a pit of self destructive behavior
a comic yourself made,show my point
https://www.depressioncomix.com/posts/characters/satellite-character-19/page/2/
he loved her and she loved him,but you cant be dragged forever
You’re mixing apples and oranges here. To be a good partner, you should try to do your best — this is advice that is obvious and applicable for anyone in a relationship. “fixing your life” … I’ve repeated this so many times here but depression is not an attitude, it’s an illness, one that is known to affect individuals for their entire lives. Some things *can’t* be fixed. Does that mean they should never enter relationships? If you have depression, you’re going to have a difficult time loving yourself. It’s not a choice. It’s not like a headache where you pop a couple of pills and you’re fixed. You have to work with what you have.
Referring to that series doesn’t help your case either. The male protagonist’s problem isn’t that he doesn’t love himself. His problem is that he’s abusive and manipulative, and people there are people who love themselves who are equally guilty of this behavior. Abusive and manipulative behavior is completely independent of whether you love yourself or not. Depression and being toxic are a particularly nasty combination, but narcissistic people can be just as toxic and abusive, and they have no lack of self-love.
Myself, I can honestly say I don’t love myself. But I found something grander and more special than that, my love for my family — people who are more important than myself and are deserving of all the love I can give them. If I followed the advice of people like you I would have robbed myself of something very special. Measuring the love-worthiness of people by their self-esteem is a practice that is unfair to disabled people and must be stopped.
I’d much rather judge a person by the way they treat other people, not by the way they treat themselves.
toxic behavior isnt independent of your view of yourself,is completly the contrary,is the way you see yourself and others,can influence your behavior a lot
and self love isnt equall to narcicism,narcicism isnt self love or self care usually is just inflated EGO,hiding other problems,or used as cope
a think the coimc is perfect example of someone who doesnt love himself
a relationship is about sharing and helping mutually,a person without a healthy behavior will only drag other with him even if hhe dont want to
from experience i can said it
my mother have BPD,and she love me,but her view of life,others and herself conditioned the way he act too people even if isnt her fault
and yes,some people are destructive and toxic,and shouldnt try to enter relations knowing they will hurt themselves and others
im not talking about ocasional mistakes,but toxic general (voluntary and unvoluntary) behavior
the coimc is a perfect example
the girl tried to save someone that was beyond save because or was unable of helping himself or wasnt trying
isnt about deserving love (deserving love is stupid,love if given by others and by ourselselves to them,there isnt like a job requirement)
is about if you are able to handle it
the way you treat others is a reflex of your own views of life
the men in the comic was self pity,self hating ,and self destructive
how was his relation?
and im not saying is a problem of ”attitude”
i perfectly know by my mom experience that mental health is a real problem
people with mental and psicological problems are in a hell of life,roting in their own minds with out clear escape
and i know i sound like a assholes of son (and probably im,im not a good or perfect person either)
but my mom is damaging herself and isnt her fault,but she is damaging the lives of everybody arounf her by asociation
you cant expect anyone to stay in sinking ship
qouting a coment below
”What “you can’t love another until you love yourself” is trying (and failing) to convey is that if you hate yourself, it makes it very hard to respect anyone who would love a piece of shit like you. And without respect there can be no love. Sooner or later, the depressed person starts wondering what is WRONG with their partner that they stay with such a horrible person as themselves and before long that can turn into suspicion, jealousy, doubt, distancing behaviours, lashing out, and even a cycle of abuse.
That’s not destiny, of course, but I have seen it happen.”
my mother with her BPD have this kid of behavior and she will never be able of having relation because of it,and se have been dragging me by 16 years of my life with her to her misery and tragedy pity
so i still thinking the same
if you are unable of loving yourself or at least improve you love
then you arent able to handle a relation because you would end hurting others as yourself
I don’t think English is your first language and I’m having a hard time understanding what you’re trying to say. I think you’re liberally mixing terminology to make your case sound more than it is. If you have something to say, say it *simply* — what you are saying now is simply a jumble of words.
“toxic behavior isnt independent of your view of yourself,is completly the contrary,is the way you see yourself and others,can influence your behavior a lot” Some people show toxic behaviors because of mental illness and this is pretty independent of others.
“and self love isnt equall to narcicism,narcicism isnt self love or self care usually is just inflated EGO,hiding other problems,or used as cope” You completely misinterpreted what I wrote. I didn’t say they were equal. I said that narcissistic people can be self-loving.
“a think the coimc is perfect example of someone who doesnt love himself” – the entire SERIES of this comic from #1 to #381 is a perfect example of people who don’t love themselves. I’m the author, I am actually the authority of what these characters are thinking, and it’s truly weird that you’re arguing me on this.
“a relationship is about sharing and helping mutually,a person without a healthy behavior will only drag other with him even if hhe dont want to” There are many people who suffer with mental health issues that are in great relationships, and there are many people who are mentally healthy who go through divorce. But I have yet to meet someone who is 100% mentally healthy, we all have some issues, it matters the degrees. That’s why I espouse a case-by-case approach. Some people who don’t self-love are fine in relationships. Some aren’t. I’m against generalizations that say if you don’t like yourself you shouldn’t be in a relationship.
In the series you mentioned the girl does end up breaking up with the depressed individual. In another series, Robin and Wren have a working relationship even though Robin hates herself. It IS possible to have a working relationship if one doesn’t self-love, and I dislike the generalization that those with self-esteem issues shouldn’t love or be loved by others. THAT is what is unhealthy.
This is all I am saying on this — this reply already took me 40 minutes to write, and that’s all the time I can afford so I’m ending it here.
depression comix @Matthew Jordan ‘the way culture interprets it at least’ –> So, Clay, it’s about interpretation?
Idk it seems your comic may be doing more harm than good. I believe the good interpretation (and possibly original or intended meaning) is that any imagined failures by a depressed person to love are not failures at all because the person is depressed! I really don’t see anything wrong with this interpretation.
Why does the comic have only the bad interpretation?
Yes! This! Thank you!
Have I ever told you that I’m totally in love with Wren and her body freckles?
The freckles are the last thing I draw with Wren after pencilling, inking, and colouring, and she just doesn’t look like Wren until that step is completed.
Her freckles are awesome. But then, freckles are awesome in general ^_^
This is an important observation worth repeating. That old adage is terrible.
Good interpretation: Any imagined failures by a depressed person to love are not failures at all because the person is depressed!
Am I wrong?
Quote from Brene Brown, a researcher on empathy, vulnerability and love who kind of sounds like M Scott Peck:
We can only love others as much as we love ourselves.
Shame, blame, disrespect, betrayal, and the withholding of affection damage the roots from which love grows. Love can only survive these injuries if they are acknowledged, healed and rare.
We cultivate love when we allow our most vulnerable and powerful selves to be deeply seen and known, and when we honor the spiritual connection that grows from that offering with trust, respect, kindness and affection.
Love is not something we give or get; it is something that we nurture and grow, a connection that can only be cultivated between two people when it exists within each one of them.
Hahaha I thought the letter v was a d I’m so stupid
The thing I hate about this saying is the assumption that if you aren’t bubbly and happy with all your life going right, you must hate yourself. It’s just another form of victim-blaming.
You are absolutely right; it is victim-blaming. Those who’ve never suffered depression truly have no idea what it’s like, and far too many of them think it’s just a prolonged sulk, or deliberately being a jerk. It’s not, and being blamed for it does not help in any way.
What’s wrong with the assumption? How is the assumption victim-blaming?
Good interpretation: Any imagined failures by a depressed person to love are not failures at all because the person is depressed!
Am I wrong?
Quote from Brene Brown, a researcher on empathy, vulnerability and love who kind of sounds like M Scott Peck:
We can only love others as much as we love ourselves.
Shame, blame, disrespect, betrayal, and the withholding of affection damage the roots from which love grows. Love can only survive these injuries if they are acknowledged, healed and rare.
We cultivate love when we allow our most vulnerable and powerful selves to be deeply seen and known, and when we honor the spiritual connection that grows from that offering with trust, respect, kindness and affection.
Love is not something we give or get; it is something that we nurture and grow, a connection that can only be cultivated between two people when it exists within each one of them.
Not sure who you are, but a lot of your replies are, honestly, rude and mean. Why come into a safe space for people and try to make them feel even worse? I don’t get it. You’re basically saying, until you can love yourself, you can’t love anyone else, so keep to yourself (which is exactly what this comic is going against). That’s wrong and makes people feel even more like they don’t deserve love. It’s very annoying when you already feel like crap and then someone comes along and tells you, because of your depression, which isn’t your fault, that you shouldn’t be out there, trying to find love because you, apparently, don’t deserve it. Yes, that definitely helps us cultivate love within ourselves. Big eye roll.
I love these two so very much…my favorite characters. One day, I will find my beautiful Wren <3
Jennifer Lucy rupaul is SHOOK
This mentality makes me feel even worse for being single.
Being single is OK. Being with someone is OK. Being told by people what is best for you is NOT OK.
To clarify, the mentality is the bad interpretation of the quote rather than the quote itself right?
Good interpretation: Any imagined failures by a depressed person to love are not failures at all because the person is depressed!
Am I wrong?
Quote from Brene Brown, a researcher on empathy, vulnerability and love who kind of sounds like M Scott Peck:
We can only love others as much as we love ourselves.
Shame, blame, disrespect, betrayal, and the withholding of affection damage the roots from which love grows. Love can only survive these injuries if they are acknowledged, healed and rare.
We cultivate love when we allow our most vulnerable and powerful selves to be deeply seen and known, and when we honor the spiritual connection that grows from that offering with trust, respect, kindness and affection.
Love is not something we give or get; it is something that we nurture and grow, a connection that can only be cultivated between two people when it exists within each one of them.
I’d like to have a book with all of this.
Me too!
Me three!
I’d buy lots of copies for my friends and family.
Can we convince you into publishing? 🙂
I’ve been on all sides and behaviors. Depressed, Happy, Toxic, Loving, Hating Myself and Loving Myself.
Sometimes I experience them in conflicting ways. Being happy while hating myself.
Anyways, the level of love I’ve experienced has remained relatively consistent across all combinations, not counting abusive family members or bullies. Whoever came up with this phrase was just pulling it out their ass, in both variations (Love yourself before you love others./Love yourself before others can love you.) it makes no sense and doesn’t really apply to real-life, like, at all.
This was so relevant yesterday while I was out with my younger daughter. When her anxiety and depression are difficult to manage, she feels like a burden on others and like she doesn’t deserve love. Sometimes gender dysphoria and related issues crop up, as well. We had been having a pretty awesome road trip, and then shortly upon arrival at the national zoo, suddenly everything came crashing down. We tried to reassure her that she deserves to be loved, and to comfort her the best we could. Gave her a little time and privacy in the car until she felt ready to return to the zoo, and she was able to enjoy the rest of the day. One thing she said stuck out for me, though. She didn’t want me to have to be her mom AND her therapist; she just wanted me to be her mom. However, for me, that is part of being a parent. It’s what family does- we take care of each other. If her sister bursts into tears in public, or I have a panic attack and feel like self-harming, wouldn’t she do the same? Or if stress were eating away at her dad, wouldn’t she hug him and reassure him that he is doing the best he can to provide for us? Would she feel like we were a burden if the roles were reversed, or would she want to do what she could to help, even if all she can do is to just hold us until it gets better? So, whatever she needed from us, we’ve got her back.
Tell your daughter I love her because shes totally worth it!
Good interpretation: Any imagined failures by a depressed person to love are not failures at all because the person is depressed!
Am I wrong?
Quote from Brene Brown, a researcher on empathy, vulnerability and love who kind of sounds like M Scott Peck:
We can only love others as much as we love ourselves.
Shame, blame, disrespect, betrayal, and the withholding of affection damage the roots from which love grows. Love can only survive these injuries if they are acknowledged, healed and rare.
We cultivate love when we allow our most vulnerable and powerful selves to be deeply seen and known, and when we honor the spiritual connection that grows from that offering with trust, respect, kindness and affection.
Love is not something we give or get; it is something that we nurture and grow, a connection that can only be cultivated between two people when it exists within each one of them.
I can’t even express how much I’ve hated this addage my whole teen and adult life.
Thank you for perfectly expressing why this saying is so much more harmful than good.
Alex Cp
???????
This is so well done omg
Pearly Seah
Kylie Jenkins ??
I remember they tried to pound this into us as kids as if it would magically prevent depression (we were “too young” to have it don’t you know!) Like we we’re selfish it stupid if we didn’t love ourselves. That whiwh “self esteem” movement and phrases like this did SO much more harm than good!
We can only love others as much as we love ourselves.
Shame, blame, disrespect, betrayal, and the withholding of affection damage the roots from which love grows. Love can only survive these injuries if they are acknowledged, healed and rare.
We cultivate love when we allow our most vulnerable and powerful selves to be deeply seen and known, and when we honor the spiritual connection that grows from that offering with trust, respect, kindness and affection.
Love is not something we give or get; it is something that we nurture and grow, a connection that can only be cultivated between two people when it exists within each one of them.
I’ve found that many people who put a priority on loving themselves have a hard time making any of the concessions or sacrifices necessary to make love work. So forgive me if I don’t buy any of this — people’s attempts at defining love in philosophical or poetical terms strikes me as somewhat pretentious. Let each person define what love means to them, and let no one else define what love means to you.
“We can only love others as much as we love ourselves.” There were times that I felt that I didn’t deserve to be loved, and that no one could ever care about me, least of all myself. It didn’t prevent me caring about other people.
Many depressed people isolate themselves from others because they don’t want to be a burden on them. That’s an example of someone loving others more than they love themselves.
If we couldn’t love others more than we love ourselves, it would be impossible for anyone to sacrifice themselves to save someone else, yet people sometimes do exactly that.
I used to think this was a positive self-affirming saying, but it totally is not. The idea here is that you can’t send spiritually healthy vibes out if you aren’t able to also send them back inward towards yourself. Like, “get your house in order before you bring your baggage to someone else’s doorstep”. Sure, we all need to grow and work on ourselves and be as healthy as we can, but if we struggle with loving ourselves sometimes, that doesn’t mean that we can’t be good partners, love others, or benefit in a healthy way from the love we receive.
It’s also a “should” statement, saying you should do this before you can do that. I don’t want anybody shaming or shoulding all over me. Yuck!
As someone who has experienced mind-boggling depression, and someone who has had partners resembling the second character here, this resonates deeply with me.
depression comix Cam Wigmore wait what? i think brene brown is agreeing with the first statement in the comic. i think the opposite of the first statement is precisely the unempathic thing to tell depressed people. you know like telling depressed people to think about the people who are in pain or would be in pain if the depressed person would continue to be depressed, self-harm or commit suicide?
depression comix Um, love =/= like right?
Nic Bentulan Sorry, I’m not really following what you’re saying. If you disagree with what I said, that’s totally OK, people are allowed to disagree.
depression comix I think you think Brene Brené Brown is disagreeing with you. Do you?
Whoever Brene Brene Brown is …???
depression comix lol edited
Brene Brown isn’t registering either
depression comix 1. Do you disagree with ‘We can only love others as much as we love ourselves’ ? Or do you think it is one of those things that is true but offensive? 2. Do you disagree with ‘You have to love yourself before you can love others’ ? Or do you think it is one of those things that is true but offensive?
depression comix Cam Wigmore i believe the characters are misinterpreting the quote as unempathic unsolicited advice. am i wrong?
i believe the answer to wren’s question is extremely negative, of course: the statement is about requirements and not advice at all. i think the implications are:
1. robin’s imagined failures to love wren or others are not failures at all eg not reading a message ( https://depressioncomix.wordpress.com/2013/03/13/depression-comix-111-112/ ) because robin is depressed.
2. wren’s capacity to love robin implies that she has loved herself first.
Nic Bentulan disagree with both of those questions. It has nothing about being offensive.
1. “robin’s imagined failures to love wren” .. I don’t think she sees it as that. She sees her position more precipitous in the relationship because of the nagging doubts depression gives her. 2. Wren never ever states she loves herself. She may have a more external locus of control than Robin, which helps her to not internalize stuff as much as Robin. Nothing to do with self-love. And in the beginning, she had a lot of trouble in the relationship, but started understanding Robin more and more, which is why it’s better now. Communication and understanding are key to a successful relationship, not “self-love”.
Chrysanthe!!!!!!!
This is beautiful.
Mai Louve
❤️
Lilith Moon
Real sweet and seems relatable… what do you think Kim Aguilar? All love is valuable, especially YOURS! ?
Yes! This! Btw, love the new font you’re doing :3
Thanks! It’s actually the same handwriting I’ve been using all along except now I’m using a different pen to do it!
I just wanted to say that I’m up at almost 3 am and this is something I really needed. This helped me so much. Thank you.
Stay strong fellow hufflepuff ❤️
Maha ?
I used to think this was a positive self-affirming saying, but it totally is not. The idea here is that you can’t send spiritually healthy vibes out if you aren’t able to also send them back inward towards yourself. Like, “get your house in order before you bring your baggage to someone else’s doorstep”. Sure, we all need to grow and work on ourselves and be as healthy as we can, but if we struggle with loving ourselves sometimes, that doesn’t mean that we can’t be good partners, love others, or benefit in a healthy way from the love we receive.
It’s also a “should” statement, saying you should do this before you can do that. I don’t want anybody shaming or shoulding all over me. Yuck!
As someone who has experienced mind-boggling depression, and someone who has had partners resembling the second character here, this resonates deeply with me.
Sayings like this tend to look at love as something over-romanticized and ideal, which really annoys me because I think we can deal with love better if it’s less abstract and more practical. Self-care is hard when you’re depressed. But you can still care for others.
I think the bottom line is that there is no such thing as a perfect love and we should stop idealizing it. We love with the tools we have. They’re not perfect but they’re ours.
How is ‘have’ here necessarily ‘should’, which states obligations and not ‘need’, which states requirements?
Good interpretation: Any imagined failures by a depressed person to love are not failures at all because the person is depressed!
Am I wrong?
Quote from Brene Brown, a researcher on empathy, vulnerability and love who kind of sounds like M Scott Peck:
We can only love others as much as we love ourselves.
Shame, blame, disrespect, betrayal, and the withholding of affection damage the roots from which love grows. Love can only survive these injuries if they are acknowledged, healed and rare.
We cultivate love when we allow our most vulnerable and powerful selves to be deeply seen and known, and when we honor the spiritual connection that grows from that offering with trust, respect, kindness and affection.
Love is not something we give or get; it is something that we nurture and grow, a connection that can only be cultivated between two people when it exists within each one of them.
… oh. oof.
Justin Thompson this is what I’ve tried explaining! ??
Quinn Anderson❤️❤️
Justin Dobrynski ❤️
I love you, babe.
Love you too
Alessandra Condessa
o foda é qdo vc escuta q tem “uma carga emocional grande demais pra carregar”
Hello and welcome to another episode of Fruvous Explains.
What “you can’t love another until you love yourself” is trying (and failing) to convey is that if you hate yourself, it makes it very hard to respect anyone who would love a piece of shit like you. And without respect there can be no love. Sooner or later, the depressed person starts wondering what is WRONG with their partner that they stay with such a horrible person as themselves and before long that can turn into suspicion, jealousy, doubt, distancing behaviours, lashing out, and even a cycle of abuse.
That’s not destiny, of course, but I have seen it happen.
It happens faster in relatiobnships with too little “alone time”/.
Good interpretation: Any imagined failures by a depressed person to love are not failures at all because the person is depressed!
Am I wrong?
Quote from Brene Brown, a researcher on empathy, vulnerability and love who kind of sounds like M Scott Peck:
We can only love others as much as we love ourselves.
Shame, blame, disrespect, betrayal, and the withholding of affection damage the roots from which love grows. Love can only survive these injuries if they are acknowledged, healed and rare.
We cultivate love when we allow our most vulnerable and powerful selves to be deeply seen and known, and when we honor the spiritual connection that grows from that offering with trust, respect, kindness and affection.
Love is not something we give or get; it is something that we nurture and grow, a connection that can only be cultivated between two people when it exists within each one of them.
Some of the most compassionate and loving people I know deal with depression and anxiety themselves. Many of them work or volunteer with animals- loving and caring for pets often helps them feel accomplished and needed, because you can see concrete results and immediate rewards (warm lapful of cat, playful dog, etc.) They have a way of comforting you without knowing why you are upset, just a steady, loving presence. However, people who work in animal care, mental health, and other service professions also run the risk of compassion fatigue and burnout, something I would like to see more employers address. Which is why self-care is so important. But, to redirect, the point I’m making is that caring for others can be a strength when you have trouble caring for yourself. The problem with depression is that it isolates you, makes you withdraw from others at a time when you need a connection and support the most, makes you feel like a burden for needing others. For some people, helping others reminds them that they have purpose, they are needed, they are still connected to the world. Sometimes that reminder can be enough to keep you trying.
the drawing is becoming much better and more detailed! thanks! and yup they are still my favorite couple! Robin and her gf
It’s a sweet thought. But unfortunately, I’m unloveable. That doesn’t stop me from loving other people – helping them with a place to stay, physical aid, financial aid, work. I do it because they need it. And it would be crude and exploitative for me to expect anything back for it. So I just offer my help and go off on my way, licking my emotional wounds.
The old adage has always been wrong, from a developmental stance: you have to have BEEN LOVED (typically by a parent) to feel that love inside. If you were told growing up “you’re worthless” then it’s that message which you ended up with internalized. To be loved by another when you have that core shame already then becomes your best path to getting that love inside of you. (Although this internalization of love later in life will take time and tribulation, that doesn’t mean it’s not “worth” the struggle.”)